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    [AI-Driven Security Operations Platform](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Cloud Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Cortex Cloud](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Application Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/application-security?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Cloud Posture Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/cloud-posture-security?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Cloud Runtime Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/runtime-security?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Prisma Cloud](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/prisma/cloud?ts=markdown)
  
  * [AI-Driven SOC](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Cortex XSIAM](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cortex-xsiam?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Cortex XDR](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cortex-xdr?ts=markdown)
  
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  * [Cortex XSOAR](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cortex-xsoar?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Cortex Exposure Management](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/exposure-management?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Cortex Xpanse](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cortex-xpanse?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Cortex Advanced Email Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/advanced-email-security?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Unit 42 Managed Detection \& Response](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/managed-detection-and-response?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Unit 42 Managed XSIAM](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/managed-xsiam?ts=markdown)

* Solutions  
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  Secure AI by Design
  
  * [Secure AI Ecosystem](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/prisma/prisma-ai-runtime-security?ts=markdown)
  * [Secure GenAI Usage](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/sase/ai-access-security?ts=markdown)  
    Network Security
  * [Cloud Network Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/network-security/software-firewalls?ts=markdown)
  * [Data Center Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/network-security/data-center?ts=markdown)
  * [DNS Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/network-security/advanced-dns-security?ts=markdown)
  * [Intrusion Detection and Prevention](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/network-security/advanced-threat-prevention?ts=markdown)
  * [Device Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/network-security/device-security?ts=markdown)
  * [OT Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/network-security/ot-security-solution?ts=markdown)
  * [5G Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/network-security/5g-security?ts=markdown)
  * [Secure All Apps, Users and Locations](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/sase/secure-users-data-apps-devices?ts=markdown)
  * [Secure Branch Transformation](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/sase/secure-branch-transformation?ts=markdown)
  * [Secure Work on Any Device](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/sase/secure-work-on-any-device?ts=markdown)
  * [VPN Replacement](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/sase/vpn-replacement-for-secure-remote-access?ts=markdown)
  * [Web \& Phishing Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/network-security/advanced-url-filtering?ts=markdown)  
    Cloud Security
  * [Application Security Posture Management (ASPM)](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/application-security-posture-management?ts=markdown)
  * [Software Supply Chain Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/software-supply-chain-security?ts=markdown)
  * [Code Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/code-security?ts=markdown)
  * [Cloud Security Posture Management (CSPM)](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/cloud-security-posture-management?ts=markdown)
  * [Cloud Infrastructure Entitlement Management (CIEM)](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/cloud-infrastructure-entitlement-management?ts=markdown)
  * [Data Security Posture Management (DSPM)](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/data-security-posture-management?ts=markdown)
  * [AI Security Posture Management (AI-SPM)](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/ai-security-posture-management?ts=markdown)
  * [Cloud Detection \& Response](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud-detection-and-response?ts=markdown)
  * [Cloud Workload Protection (CWP)](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/cloud-workload-protection?ts=markdown)
  * [Web Application \& API Security (WAAS)](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud/web-app-api-security?ts=markdown)  
    Security Operations
  * [Cloud Detection \& Response](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cloud-detection-and-response?ts=markdown)
  * [Security Information and Event Management](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/modernize-siem?ts=markdown)
  * [Network Security Automation](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/network-security-automation?ts=markdown)
  * [Incident Case Management](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/incident-case-management?ts=markdown)
  * [SOC Automation](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/security-operations-automation?ts=markdown)
  * [Threat Intel Management](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/threat-intel-management?ts=markdown)
  * [Managed Detection \& Response](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/managed-detection-and-response?ts=markdown)
  * [Attack Surface Management](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cortex-xpanse/attack-surface-management?ts=markdown)
  * [Compliance Management](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cortex-xpanse/compliance-management?ts=markdown)
  * [Internet Operations Management](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cortex-xpanse/internet-operations-management?ts=markdown)
  * [Extended Data Lake (XDL)](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cortex-xdl?ts=markdown)
  * [Agentic Assistant](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/cortex-agentic-assistant?ts=markdown)  
    Endpoint Security
  * [Endpoint Protection](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/endpoint-protection?ts=markdown)
  * [Extended Detection \& Response](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/detection-and-response?ts=markdown)
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  * [Small \& Medium Business Solutions](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/industry/small-medium-business-portfolio?ts=markdown)

* Services  
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  [Threat Intel and Incident Response Services](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Assess](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess?ts=markdown)
  
  * [AI Security Assessment](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/ai-security-assessment?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Attack Surface Assessment](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/attack-surface-assessment?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Breach Readiness Review](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/breach-readiness-review?ts=markdown)
  
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  * [Cloud Security Assessment](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/cloud-security-assessment?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Compromise Assessment](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/compromise-assessment?ts=markdown)
  
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  * [M\&A Cyber Due Diligence](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/mergers-acquisitions-cyber-due-diligence?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Penetration Testing](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/penetration-testing?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Purple Team Exercises](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/purple-teaming?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Ransomware Readiness Assessment](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/ransomware-readiness-assessment?ts=markdown)
  
  * [SOC Assessment](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/soc-assessment?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Supply Chain Risk Assessment](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/supply-chain-risk-assessment?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Tabletop Exercises](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/assess/tabletop-exercise?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Unit 42 Retainer](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/retainer?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Respond](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/respond?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Cloud Incident Response](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/respond/cloud-incident-response?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Digital Forensics](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/respond/digital-forensics?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Incident Response](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/respond/incident-response?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Managed Detection and Response](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/respond/managed-detection-response?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Managed Threat Hunting](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/respond/managed-threat-hunting?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Managed XSIAM](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cortex/managed-xsiam?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Unit 42 Retainer](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/retainer?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Transform](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/transform?ts=markdown)
  
  * [IR Plan Development and Review](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/transform/incident-response-plan-development-review?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Security Program Design](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/transform/security-program-design?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Virtual CISO](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/transform/vciso?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Zero Trust Advisory](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/unit42/transform/zero-trust-advisory?ts=markdown)  
    [Global Customer Services](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/services?ts=markdown)
  
  * [Education \& Training](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/services/education?ts=markdown)
  
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    UNIT 42 RETAINER
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* Partners  
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  * [Solution Providers](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/partners/nextwave-solution-providers?ts=markdown)
  * [Managed Security Service Providers](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/partners/managed-security-service-providers?ts=markdown)
  * [XMDR Partners](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/partners/managed-security-service-providers/xmdr?ts=markdown)  
    Take Action
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  * [Become a Partner](https://paloaltonetworks.my.site.com/NextWavePartnerProgram/s/partnerregistration?type=becomepartner)
  * [Request Access](https://paloaltonetworks.my.site.com/NextWavePartnerProgram/s/partnerregistration?type=requestaccess)
  * [Find a Partner](https://paloaltonetworks.my.site.com/NextWavePartnerProgram/s/partnerlocator)  
    [CYBERFORCE
    CYBERFORCE represents the top 1% of partner engineers trusted for their security expertise.
    Learn more](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cyberforce?ts=markdown)

* Company  
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  Palo Alto Networks
  
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  * [Precision AI Security](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/precision-ai-security?ts=markdown)
  * [Our Platform Approach](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/why-paloaltonetworks/platformization?ts=markdown)
  * [Accelerate Your Cybersecurity Transformation](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/why-paloaltonetworks/nam-cxo-portfolio?ts=markdown)
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    Careers
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    Read more](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/company/press/2021/palo-alto-networks-secures-top-ranking-on-newsweek-s-most-loved-workplaces-list-for-2021?ts=markdown)

* More  
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  * [Threat Vector Podcast](https://unit42.paloaltonetworks.com/unit-42-threat-vector-podcast/)
  * [Packet Pushers Podcasts](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/podcasts/packet-pusher?ts=markdown)  
    Connect
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# Speaking Security in Board Language

Jul 31, 2025  
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Threat Vector | Speaking Security in Board Language  
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In this episode of Threat Vector, host David Moulton speaks with Nigel Hedges, Executive General Manager of Cyber \& Risk at Chemist Warehouse and Sigma Healthcare. Nigel shares how CISOs can shift cybersecurity from a technical problem to a business priority. He explores the value of aligning security strategies with enterprise goals, building trust with boards, and using storytelling to communicate risk. With experience across industries like retail, higher education, and professional services, Nigel offers a pragmatic take on leading high-performing security teams. Learn why culture, metrics, and communication are vital to cyber resilience. 

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*Protect yourself from the evolving threat landscape -- [more episodes of Threat Vector are a click away](https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/podcasts/threat-vector)*

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**Transcript**

\[ Music \]

**Nigel Hedges**: We are working in a really important field, but don't forget to be human and have a bit of fun. You know, because I think that gets lost along the way. We get a little bit burnt out. We're dealing with serious issues. Even in an incident response scenario it's important to have humor. So I think if I would say -- lay people would I think just say, "Make sure you don't forget that." It's important to have a bit of fun along the way.

**David Moulton**: Welcome to "Threat Vector," the Palo Alto Network's podcast where we discuss pressing cybersecurity threats and resilience and uncover insights in to the latest industry trends. I'm your host, David Moulton, senior director of thought leadership for Unit 42. Today I'm speaking to Nigel Hedges, executive general manager of cyber and risk at Chemist Warehouse. Nigel has built and led cybersecurity programs across retail, healthcare, professional services, and higher education. He's held CISO roles at K-Mart, CPA Australia, and the Reese Group. And he teaches as an adjunct professor of cybersecurity at Deakin University. In this episode we talk about how to move cybersecurity from the IT department in to the board room and why CISOs must become storytellers. We cover how Nigel uses analogies to make risk understandable, the challenges of aligning cyber budgets with strategy, and how to build teams that thrive even under pressure. Nigel's also a DJ, a gamer, and a dad bringing a creative side in to his leadership style. Nigel Hedges, welcome to "Threat Vector." I am so excited to have you here today.

**Nigel Hedges**: Let's do it. Yeah.

**David Moulton**: You've held CISO roles at major Australian enterprises. What does it take to elevate cybersecurity from just an IT issue to a business issue in these types of environments?

**Nigel Hedges**: Yeah. It's a good question because I have more and more described cyber to anyone who will listen that it's not a technology risk. It's a technology enabled business risk just like any other business risk. So that's the start of that conversation. But I typically try to address it in my first 100 days of any new role which is making a conscious effort to spend equal time on trying to understand the environment and the cyber risks that, you know, we're inheriting as well as going and meeting with key stakeholders from the business units. And that way having the dialogue, explaining the philosophy around my approach to cyber, you know with the gems of marketing sales, supply chain, whatever it might be, that actually just starting with a question, "How can I help you?" And so that's the way that I try to elevate cybersecurity is by, you know, getting in them and right from the get go appearing like somebody who wants to help in their domain.

**David Moulton**: So you've said you go in to these line of business leaders and you talk to them. Are there certain lines of business that are eager to partner with you and/or notorious for causing you headaches down the road?

**Nigel Hedges**: Yes. I think there is a lot of like if you talk about the back end support environments of HR and so forth I think that the corporate sort of IT services tend to resonate and share with you the kind of need to do I guess hygiene work. It's not as glorious as some of the enablement and growth areas. So they tend to be quite already friendly to discuss and work out ways that, you know, we could collaborate. I think I'd probably find the most challenging with people and organization -- organizational business units that are quite incentivized by business growth and pushing out projects and deliverables to meet fast needs in the market. And so therefore they don't have as much time as I think they would like to be able to spend on other things. So getting in to their calendars can be quite tricky and sort of always comes with a what's in it for me.

**David Moulton**: So when you think about some of the most common disconnects between the cyber function and the executive team, which ones keep coming up? And maybe which ones are starting to feel like that disconnect is shrinking a little bit?

**Nigel Hedges**: At the board or the executive level? Sorry.

**David Moulton**: Well, at the board or the executive level. You know, when you think about that leadership within the business and then that advisory or fiduciary role that the board has to the business, you know, where do you see some of the most common disconnects between that mission that you have as the security leader and the ground truth and reality that you face and then what the executive team maybe assumes or expects?

**Nigel Hedges**: Yeah. So I think that most board level will see cyber and I think there's that sort of quiet items number one issue on boards minds here in Australia. And so I guess the gap though is understanding, and there's two parts to that. One is you think about the cyber role and how they interface in to the board and the executive. The amount of experience across population of the cyber leaders has meant that the experience of the board isn't quite there yet. And I think we're still growing and learning to talk board language, things like materiality, talking about things that matter are things that we don't always get. So sometimes I think as cyber leaders we do ourselves a little disservice by going to a board meeting and just, you know, waffling on about firewall rules and all sorts of things that might have happened. So that's a start, but I think from a board perspective they also don't really know cyber very well. So therefore they don't know the types of questions to ask. What is probably very promising in the last few years, you know, in Australia we've had various groups like the Australian instrumentive company directors come out with cyber principles, documents that talk about red flags and the types of questions a board should be asking of their executive and their cyber leaders. And so that helps, I think. We're seeing that improve. From an executive perspective I think there's still a little bit of room to grow there. They're under a lot of increased pressure. You know, at a time where the economy is also under a bit of stress to do more with less. And so balancing risk and balancing growth they really need to be taken through. So there's still a little bit of a disconnect there, but I think I'm seeing really positive signs that both the board and the executive want to understand so they can make good risk decisions.

**David Moulton**: Nigel, I like the idea that there are unifying documents out that help coach an important group like your board on how to have a conversation with you. And I think maybe it helps you understand the types of questions you should answer. And I suppose when I say you not just you specifically, but security leaders in general, I'm curious though. When you're preparing for those board level presentations how do you decide what to include and what to leave out?

**Nigel Hedges**: Yeah. So for me I always try to go in with that materiality perspective again so I am thinking about the types of incidents that have occurred possibly in that period. I'm looking at things that have happened in the market that are of interest. And I will put them in to my presentation and sometimes going in to a very busy or at risk really type of environment we've got to think that they're probably going to be spending about four hours all together talking about all sorts of things. So I try to think of it like I've got 10 minutes to talk and in fact out of that 10 minutes I've got 5 minutes to talk and 5 minutes for questions. The reality is even with that perspective I've typically gone in to \[inaudible 00:08:57\] meeting and come out 45 minutes later or longer. So but I've basically tried to apply that approach because when I look at my material I suddenly say to myself that there's no way I can cover these eight or nine things in five minutes. So what can I -- what should I cut out? You have to just be brutal and go back to that material sort of thing. They've got a fiduciary duty of care at the board level especially to protect the organization and the organization's interests. So what connects to that? And that's helped me.

**David Moulton**: Nigel you talked about firewall rules and that's a really technical aspect. What do you do to help board members who don't have that technical background understand the context and the deep detail and technical knowledge that's needed to have a grasp on what you're presenting to them? So that they can actually make an informed decision as a member of the board.

**Nigel Hedges**: I try to leverage I think some of the things I learned earlier in my career. When I started out I was in sales engineering and pre sales consultancy. And my role was to work between very technical folks and help decipher what they say to potentially the administrative folks or the executive folks who don't live and breathe the acronyms that we do. And so what that taught me is the power of storytelling and analogies and metaphors. So when I'm talking to the boards I generally ask for permission to use an analogy, and I haven't yet had anyone say no. And then I'll try to use it in a colloquial sense. So for example talking about identity access management I'll say, you know, "It's a bit like in the old days of the train station where there was one queue and one counter to get a ticket and you'd queue up and that's how you got in." Versus the stadium where there's 100,000 people coming in to watch a game and you can't treat the influx of people like that. You have to have 10 stalls and multiple entry points and there has to be proper stage gating. So I try to use those kind of analogies to, "Okay. I think I get it now." And most of the time that seems to work and of course to get away from the acronyms. That's a no brainer.

**David Moulton**: Yeah. Acronyms and jargon get you in trouble. But as a fellow storyteller I'm nodding along with you. I think the ability to change that deep technical knowledge or that speak that becomes common in the shop in to something that anyone listening goes, "Oh yeah. I can picture the train station and I can picture the stadium." I was just in Italy and we were at the Colosseum and even at the Colosseum they had different gates and allowing everyone to come in in a flow that made sense. So, you know, just becomes part of the human experience that you're relating what you're doing and what you're trying to achieve for the business back to a group of folks that they're with you. I appreciate that. So, Nigel, you've worked across retail, higher ed, professional services. A lot of different domains. How do the conversations around cyber risks shift across these sectors at the executive level?

**Nigel Hedges**: Yeah. So I think that at the executive level for me at least in my experience that it hasn't been as different as one might think. The industry's different. Different complexities of course. But I've found the types of concerns and questions are the same. I think the only difference I would probably point to is culture, and take retail for example. It's high stakes, quick to market, trying to get things done really quickly. So therefore your approach to inserting cyber in to those conversations at the executive level needs to be done in a certain way. With professional services, higher education, there's a little bit more regulation and compliance in there. So there's a little bit of a slow down to speed up type of thing. And so again that's kind of just going with the flow with what are the carrots and the sticks that you have available to work with the executives.

**David Moulton**: That makes sense. I remember talking with Gregory Jones who's a CISO over at Xavier University in Louisiana and he talked about the population that makes up a university being very different, you know. Brand new students to faculty members who are doing research to faculty members who have no interest in computers and still need to take cyber training, you know, and a whole lot of other folks. So I think that that culture and that environment really do dictate where you can speed up or where you slow down or where it's perceived that you're a blocker or perceived that you're reducing risk and tuning that story each time. Sounds like it's the approach that you've found is successful. Talk to me about metrics. Are there metrics or benchmarks that have consistently resonated with boards?

**Nigel Hedges**: Yeah. I find it quite an interesting topic because an organization a little while ago we were working out metrics and benchmarks and we had decided on about 40 metrics. And then as we went in to review with, you know, someone senior on the risk sides we were conscious that 40 still felt like a lot. And interesting enough that risk person came back with 86. So went in the completely wrong direction for what I was thinking. And the problem with that was when you present that many metrics you just get a sea of amber. You know the \[inaudible 00:15:09\] thing. And no one knows which way to turn. So I've kind of gone back to my basics with that and I try to limit the types of metrics to around 20 and sort of keep it sort of as low as possible in terms of the things I'm going to talk about. Obviously human risk is one of those. So things like the engagement with phishing campaigns. Not necessarily the click rates, but also just the engagement is a sign of cyber engagement from the organization. But those kinds of metrics seem to resonate. And of course if you're talking about bench marking and maturity then it's hard to not link that to the frameworks that are quite popular such as the new cybersecurity framework which is definitely resonating here in Australia. There is the essential eight that's come out from the Australian cyber security center for the ASD, Australian Signals Directorate. I know I'm just mentioning government agency names now, but yeah. So they've come out with the essential eight which is cyber mitigation strategies. But they are quite aligned to I guess some of the majority of the good things that are in your cybersecurity framework. And of course ISO 27,001. But I've found this a lot easier to show capability. What is our current state? What is our future state? What are we trying to get to? In terms of cyber.

**David Moulton**: And we'll go ahead and put a link in the show notes to those frameworks so if you're listening and you're curious to go see what Nigel's talking about or how close or where there are gaps between the different frameworks you can do a little detective work on your own. \[ Music \] You said something and I'm curious about it. And maybe this is just for me, but when you say engagement with the phishing campaign can you talk more about that? What do you mean by engagement with a phishing campaign? I've never heard it put that way before.

**Nigel Hedges**: So what I mean by that is when we push out a phishing campaign it's pretty easy to try to change the content of that phishing campaign to be tricky or really easy depending on what you're trying to do. So for example just as a prelude to the answer when we pushed out a new training, security awareness training, platform there were some folks that wanted to push out a really really difficult baseline and I thought that was not the right thing to do. So what we did was is we actually made like a McDonald's burger orientated phishing campaign to get a bit of a laugh out of it. And we made it a bit more humorous and we pushed that out. And then what we found was because there was a little bit of humor in it the population that we pushed the campaign out to were more prone to stopping and actually submitting it as a phishing campaign in to the system so that, you know, that sort of early warning patient zero type of situation. So then we could see not only the click through rates. Might have a tolerable range of, I don't know, 10% or something like that. But we could see that 25% of people that received it actually submitted and engaged with the reporting mechanism for that. And as we started to build a ratio my head of GIC and issuance thought we would build this ratio between click rate and the submission from people when they catch it. And that worked really well. So now we use both of those stats to kind of give -- paint a picture. Is that bad? Did we get 18% of people click through a particularly nasty phishing campaign that we designed? But did we get, you know, 50% of people reporting it? That would be a good sign that people are paying attention to cyber issues.

**David Moulton**: I appreciate that. I had not thought about like the engagement being did you go through and click submit this is a phish. But that is important. Like not just that you saw and ignored it, hit delete, but that you were able to navigate to where are the buttons that you need to click to make sure that the security team is aware that you know how to do that. That's -- that's helpful to know. So at K-Mart you built this highly engaged top performing cyber team across a bunch of different geographies. How do team culture and engagement factor in to executive confidence in cybersecurity programs?

**Nigel Hedges**: Yeah. That's a good question. I think that all executives are looking at their teams and want to see that the teams are engaged and that there's a positive culture. So it's not just limited to the cyber. I think that it is really important. Sometimes cyber can feel like a death by 1,000 paper cuts. You know we're not really in industries such as, you know, firefighting and police and ambulance where, you know, those folks are dealing with a lot of sort of negative things that are happening around them. And, you know, we certainly thank those people for their service and when it comes to cyber it's not nearly as life and death sort of situations as that, but it's a lot more of it. So it's like tiny little issues. There's somebody clicking on a link, someone doing this. There's a pack over here. There's, you know, a bridge that could \[inaudible 00:21:23\] so a lot of \[inaudible 00:21:24\] stresses. And for me that's meant that you need to give that stress relief for the teams. And I find humor has definitely worked consistently to try to build that kind of safe space where people can have a bit of a laugh and a joke. It's, you know, we have to be professional, but there's no reason why we can't enjoy what we do and the people we do it with. So I try to build that in to the team culture. We are surrounded by teams that certainly if you're in an agile environment where, you know, development groups and squads are calling themselves funky names like the marvels or the avengers or guardians of the galaxy and yet the information security team is the information security team. So I tend to try to build a tribe, get everyone to think of what we'll call name, what kind of motto we want to have as a cyber team, and in my last two workplaces, they're kind of workplace inclusive, I mean, we've made merchandise that people can have a look at, a pullover or a t-shirt that clearly has a name and people can wear it with a bit of pride as part of the team that protects the organization against cyber threats.

**David Moulton**: I think that's so important what you're talking about with humor. You've mentioned that a couple of times. And I've tortured some of "Threat Vector's" guests by asking them to tell me their favorite cybersecurity joke. I will give you a little bit of time to decide if you want to tell us one while you're here, but you've described yourself as a creative person. You enjoy DJing, producing music, traveling, gaming with your son. How does that creative energy and balance outside of work shape your leadership style or influence how you approach cybersecurity?

**Nigel Hedges**: Yeah. So it's really important I think that in our industry we're often triaging issues so we build up this kind of divergent -- sort of convergent thinking. We have a convergent thinking approach. So got a problem. What's the issue? Let's lock it all down. So black cat thinking, creedal thinking, is very important in our industry for analysis. But it really leaves not a lot of room for anything else. So I try to be more an ideas person and that means sitting down and making sure your team know that if you come up with an idea it's not that you want to run with it. You're just suggesting possibilities. So that's a negative part of that. But I find that helps me kind of think about the problem in an interesting way, get people to think outside of maybe the traditional analysis stream they might be taking and approach it from different perspectives. There was a book by Edward de Bono. It's a bit aged now. "The Six Thinking Hats." And he talks about how you can use different perspectives to look at a problem. And I found that book definitely resonated with me. And maybe the last thing is that when you've had a really long day and you've been dealing with back to back meetings and dealing with all sorts of project issues and trying to get cyber across everything you just need to relax. So my music is a creative outlet for me and of course always been a bit of a video gamer so, you know, I like to sit down and play some games with my son now.

**David Moulton**: What are you all playing right now?

**Nigel Hedges**: Well he has just recovered from this Brawl Stars which is a mobile game. And now he's getting a resurgence or reconnaissance back in to Minecraft. So I'm learning how to build crafting tables and how to build things properly apparently.

**David Moulton**: I like that you said recovering from. My son is also in to Minecraft and there are days when he sits down and talks to me about the work that he's doing in the game to automate things or to build out these, you know, fantastic universes. And there's a few others. And it's you know at first I was like, "Oh, he's just spending his time playing video games." And then I realized no. He's building worlds and is creative and enjoying himself and figuring out how to be collaborative. And so it's been nice to see that different perspective on you know how he spends his time on things. But I'm sure we could geek out a little bit on video games for the rest of the pod, but I did want to get back to a couple of questions before we run out of time. And Nigel talk to me about your experience. You know, what are the keys of making cyber secure -- cybersecurity spending a priority in annual budgets?

**Nigel Hedges**: Yeah. So that is a good one and I think it goes back to starting in the 100 -- first 100 days. So I typically will look at the annual reports and I will try to connect business strategy and typically technology strategy, but definitely business strategy. And connect that back to cyber priorities. So if I find that I'm proposing something that really doesn't very clearly resonate with a business strategy now it's supporting that, then it's probably something I can't prioritize. It might be something I do in \[inaudible 00:27:06\] enhancement, but it would probably be best if it -- so I'll put things in that map to the business strategy. That's something I kind of learned from the Sherwood applied business security architecture or SABSA. You know, when I first made the transition out of sales engineering I went in to a security engineering role and SABSA was really helpful in connecting what we do from a security perspective to sort of business. And that stuck with me. And then if that's clearly in there then there's some of that kind of hive mind perspective like are we spending 10% of technology budgets versus everything else that we spend on. So out of the technology budget are we spending 10% on cyber? These are some of the sort of statistics you might pull from industry research like Gardner. And then from there kind of just map out plus or minus how that stacks up to current spend and available resources because we're all dealing with scarcity of resources. So you can only do what you can do and the best thing you can actually present is that with this spend I will not be able to do this. And then when you do that what I've found is sometimes folks in the board and the executives will say, "Well, I'm not actually really prepared to accept that. I actually want to do that thing over there you said you can't do." Well, thanks, you know, sir or madame, but that's going to cost a little extra. And this would all be -- so if this is what you want me to deliver this is what we have to do.

**David Moulton**: No. I like that idea of being able to contrast. Here's what you don't get and here's what you do get and you've got to make a decision on what you're going to fund. I'm wondering is that effective, you know, beyond the board? But maybe you've got like a CFO who pushes back on that investment that you want, you know. Does it -- does it work with that colleague as well as a board?

**Nigel Hedges**: I think mostly. They're human and they're dealing with factors like some form of merger and acquisition and things like that. And so there's always other competing priorities. So at the end of the day all we can do is put a story forward and hope that it will be, you know, accepted or at least considered. At the end of the day the board and the executive make the call on what they want to do and I'm more than happy to accept that. I will usually. My preference though is if I feel very strongly about a particular thing I will make it very, very clear that I'm uncomfortable with this risk. But again at the same time I can't make the call. My job is an advisor. I'm there to tell them what they need to know and then everyone makes decisions what they think is the best thing for the company.

**David Moulton**: Nigel, for CISOs who want to have more influence in the board room, what soft skills have you found that are most critical for making that leap?

**Nigel Hedges**: I think listening skills is incredibly important. I think sometimes a lot of CISOs slash CISAs \[assumed spelling\] will go in to the board room and panic because they're around very intimidating influential people in the organization. So it gets a bit of a deer in the headlights type of scenario where the motor keeps on going and we're just trying to get through the presentation. That's where taking that deep breath, making some statements, being clear, crisp, and concise as you possibly can, pausing and allowing the board to ask questions if they have them. So listening skills, active listening skills, playing back what you heard to make sure that you actually heard the question right because periodically I have heard a question, played it back and realized in my playback that I totally misinterpreted what they asked. So it's very important to do that.

**David Moulton**: I like that. I've often tried to remind myself and my teams to be bold, be brave, be gone with executives. I haven't got a B word for the humor that goes in there, but I like that pattern interruption that you're talking about when it comes to not meeting expectations, but in a way that helps you communicate well. Nigel thanks for an awesome conversation both about cybersecurity leadership and how you interact with the board and for sharing a little bit of your thoughts on humor and gaming and the importance of having some of those release areas for your creativity outside the business.

**Nigel Hedges**: No. I really appreciate the conversation, David. So once again thank you for having me on board. \[ Music \]

**David Moulton**: That's it for today. If you like what you heard please subscribe wherever you listen. And leave us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. Those reviews and your feedback really do help me understand what you want to hear about. And if you want to reach out to me directly about the show, just email me at threatvector@ paloaltonetworks.com. I want to thank our executive producer Michael Heller, our content and production teams which include Kenne Miller, Joe Bettencourt, and Virginia Tran. Elliott Peltzman edits the show and mixes our audio. We'll be back next week. Until then stay secure, stay vigilant. Goodbye for now.  
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